Friday 4 September 2015

A Tale of Debating and Subtle Sexism

For a change in pace, here is a story from my life:
4/9/15: I just came back from the Sydney Grammar v Sydney Boys High 1st’s GPS debate. I go every year - it’s brilliant. A week’s worth of lead-up banter, amazing puns, pretend gambling odds, hilarious jokes about the speakers’ personal lives, and of course a really solid-ass, highly intellectual debate. The debating community are pretty great too; mostly feminist, social liberals. The Grammar-High Great Debate is literally everything I love.

…so then why does it feel so ostracising?

Sitting in the audience listening to the commanding, authoritative tones of young men while wolf whistles and deep laughter soundtrack the debate makes it pretty clear that this elite level of high school debating and intellectual popularity is no place for women. Poetic description aside, there is a certain atmosphere of respect and reverence for boys’ debates that simply doesn’t exist in a girls’, or even mixed division. As we watched the boys stamp and clap in a human archway when the debaters paraded in, I could not possibly imagine this sort of attitude towards one of our debates, despite my *female* friend being a better speaker than anyone present tonight according to official world debating rankings. So if it’s not skill level that dictates which debates get all the hype and which don’t… what does?

I think there is a certain pre-existing acceptance that boys’ events are a bigger deal than girls’, even in areas which have roughly equal participation from both genders. Of course girls’ netball and gymnastics will get more attention that the men’s because these areas have become typically “feminine” (a problem in itself), but in an activity with basically equal accessibility and involvement of girls and boys such as debating, the boys still get more airtime.

Why? Off the top of my head, a few reasons:

  1. Specific to debating/public speaking, men have deeper voices, which command more respect and attention than women’s due to sexist standards in our society. For an analysis of how our perceptions of capability based off voices are prejudiced, click here. And so naturally, listening to an all-male speaker bench sounds so much more official and important than their squeaky female counterparts. Following this train of thought, since the political landscape and parliamentary debates are all male dominated, a boy’s debate appears to mimic “real life” more than the girls’, again adding to the prestige of men’s debating.
  2. The “banter” and humour associated with elite Sydney high school competitions is an area literally only accessible to boys. Most of the jokes and “top bant” are not funny purely due to their content, but heavily rely on the status of who said it. I have never heard a girl called a “legend” or “banter queen” in regards to these kinds of conversations, because they are labels reserved specifically for the boys who have had their popularity built by... *drumroll* other boys. And especially considering some of the funniest and most sarcastic lines are based around “his fraternisation with girls” or “his interaction with ladies”, it’s no wonder I feel like I will never be able to participate in these circles, despite my perfectly compatible interests, skill, and even sense of humour. How does this result in more respect for the boys’ team? It’s funny, it reflect male pride and it often objectifies girls (though mostly not maliciously). Those three things are enough to draw in any audience in this society.
  3. Boys receive more attention when they build up hype for an event on social media. The analysis for this one is pretty similar to everything written above, so a scroll through Facebook is likely enough proof.


I’m not entirely sure where I’m going with this except to say that it saddens me that I constantly find myself locked out of areas I would otherwise love to participate in. I want to be able to woof and yell and whistle and join in, but I feel too strongly like it’s “just not my place”. Poor Hannah. Of course this kind of attitude builds and adds to an overall sexist society where women continue to be respected less than men in more harmful ways than school debating, but that’s for another post.

Apologies if this post is 0% relatable, it is fairly specific to elite Sydney debating culture, but I’m sure there are parallels in many other areas. Also let me know if you like this more casual personal post, or if the analytical articles are more your thing.

xx


Hannah

16 comments:

  1. Sup Hannah,

    Yep I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, and it's a real shame that girls debating (and other activities/sports etc.) don't have that same culture and hype around them. I reckon reason #2 is a bit contentious, because whilst yes all the banter about boys and their love lives is magnified around these events, it's also just a more concentrated reflection of daily bant/chat in school playgrounds. The stuff about who said it being relevant is also largely true, but I reckon the internet has democratised bant a little bit, i.e. kids who post funny (or "funny") comments on FB, if made well, will probably get likes/support irrespective. Also- whilst yep of course it's true that lots of the humour is girls-centric, I think there's a big spectrum (from the horribly objectifying/disrespectful stuff up to things that I think are quite okay). I'm not talking about specific hype in the lead-up to this debate when I say this but I reckon some of it is ok! e.g. take Eden's joke about me on Max's profile (lol). Sure, that was pretty relationship-centric but I thought it was very funny and fine, and when you apply the reverse, so long as it doesn't become objectifying or disrespectful, I reckon that's ok. Totally understand if you disagree though!

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  2. Yeah definitely agree about the spectrum of objectifying jokes, I dont have much of a problem with them in terms of sexism (they're hilarious and well-meaning), but it just adds to an overall feeling of the banter being a "guy's zone", because bant about john doe's charm over the ladies is pretty far removed from something women can relate to/feel they are "in with it". Eden's joke about you certainly is an exception, but sadly pretty rare.
    Also I actually feel like #2 is the biggest issue for me personally (and the bit I felt angriest about whilst writing) because the whole culture around banter - especially at grammar in my personal experience - is such a "guy's only thing". Part of it is because the jokes are about relationships and girls, but mostly just because it's easier for guys to build a reputation as funny/witty, whereas those sort of labels tend not to sit easily on girls, or if they do it's in a different way. I was talking to Eden and Mouli about it and we all said that girls /would/ banter and chant if we could, but the culture is so male-centred that a girl just doesnt fit the expected image of "banter legend", let alone make it into that "circle". I just find that really depressing because I'd love to have that sort of reputation, but its 100% unattainable

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    1. I think what you've picked up on in terms of the whole bant/chat thing being exclusionary in terms of not only the content but just how people think of it is absolutely true. For a huge number of reasons, patriarchal standards dictate that boys should be funny and girls should be able to giggle at boys' jokes. When you've got that kind of combination going, these kinds of concentrated examples of banter etc. are always gonna be really out of the reach of girls. It goes without saying that that's a ridiculous standard (Eden's profile of Max a case in point) and I completely feel for you when you say you'd love to participate but feel you can't.

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  3. Woww i entered a reply and google just told me to start again. Heres round #2

    Your perspective is interesting and well written, all id say is dont underestimate the impact of your single-sex elite selective HS context on your experiences. To be fair you have said this is mainly in relation to elite sydney debating, but ill comment from a more general view.

    The gender divides in banter and side jokes, i believe, are largely enforced on us not only by gender pased social discrimination but significantly also by the very fact that we interact in social groups which are segregated by gender. When raised in a single-sex environment (like grammar) its not unreasonable that youre more comfortable sharing in these bolsterous jokes/banter with people who you regard as your 'own'. When you get yourself out of the single sex divides and experience workplaces/co-ed high schools/uni social groups the place of women and men in these situations improves a lot. This is from personal experience, so i suppose not everyone will have the same feeling?

    I think its about growing to be more comfortable with the other gender in a friendly/casual way - when you study or work alongside them banter is easier (shared experiences and etc). Most people i know from co-ed schools are very comfortable engaging on par with their male counterparts, so hopefully your experience improves with time too :)

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  4. Woww i entered a reply and google just told me to start again. Heres round #2

    Your perspective is interesting and well written, all id say is dont underestimate the impact of your single-sex elite selective HS context on your experiences. To be fair you have said this is mainly in relation to elite sydney debating, but ill comment from a more general view.

    The gender divides in banter and side jokes, i believe, are largely enforced on us not only by gender pased social discrimination but significantly also by the very fact that we interact in social groups which are segregated by gender. When raised in a single-sex environment (like grammar) its not unreasonable that youre more comfortable sharing in these bolsterous jokes/banter with people who you regard as your 'own'. When you get yourself out of the single sex divides and experience workplaces/co-ed high schools/uni social groups the place of women and men in these situations improves a lot. This is from personal experience, so i suppose not everyone will have the same feeling?

    I think its about growing to be more comfortable with the other gender in a friendly/casual way - when you study or work alongside them banter is easier (shared experiences and etc). Most people i know from co-ed schools are very comfortable engaging on par with their male counterparts, so hopefully your experience improves with time too :)

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  5. THIS IS NOT HATE

    JUST EXPRESSING MY OPINION

    In all honestly i firmly believe that you are viewing 'elite Sydney debating culture' with a sexist lens that is not at all necessary, nor does it shine light on anything substantial that proves 'debating is sexist'. Trying to form an argument on the depth of a male's voice, and to say that it is sexist because of the different responses it evokes when compared to a female's... in all honesty, that is one of the most ridiculous arguments i have ever heard; maybe it's because, in some circumstances, that what the males are saying is more powerful and they place more emphasis on their articulation than females do? Obviously the males' voice is biologically deeper than the females - both genders have differences, and it is, as i said before, ridiculous to view these differences with a sexist, bigoted lens that rules out any form of cooperation. 'Your voice is deep, that's sexist!' is essentially what you're saying. Also, in regards to your second point, maybe the reason you don't get involved in banter is for personal reasons and not gender specific ones... You seem to degrade any kind of culture that you're not a part of, and i think its more out of personal resentment rather than an actual problem. It's banter... Who the hell cares about it? If you're trying to prove such a mature point, maybe you shouldn't frame your argument around such immature things. Also, I can speak personally, something you seem willing to disregard before you've heard opinions that counter your own, and say that I have met fellow females who have shared good jokes and laughs in the lead up to 'elite Sydney private school' events, and regard female humour as equal to male, and in saying that i do not think there is any sort of competition, nor should there be any form of distinction. That being said, of course there are jokes that are relatable to genders, however for the most part, nothing is stopping anyone from cracking a joke about the performance of a team, or anything they so wish to do so. if you're wondering why there's such a problem with gender distinction in society, the answer is because arguments such as these greatly problematise sincere, innocent organs of society that are aimed at generating fun and humour... the fact that your argument for feminism is centred around 'banter' and unchangeable biological differences completely undermines the significance of wider problems in society... to sum it all up, I'm sorry but i completely disagree with your argument, as i find it impossible to comprehend the points you are trying to make with your evidence

    this isnt hate, nor is it intended to offend in any way possible. I am simply sharing my voice, my female voice, so that you may appreciate the differing views on this topic.

    Thank you

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    1. So what males are saying are more powerful, therefore more crowds are attracted. Why are male oratory skills so much more powerful so as to attract a crowd at least double the size of any non-male or mixed debate I have ever seen? Are they born with this greater skill than females? If not, what caused them to be more powerful?

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    2. maybe its the content of their speeches that attract crowds? and yes, i will say that males have a far more powerful voice in terms of tone and depth than females... so what? thats just biology, its literally been the case since the beginning of human existence. that being said, it doesn't mean that what females say isn't worthy of an audience, because sometimes females have better things to say than males, and other times its the other way around. and the reason males are considered 'more powerful' is because of contextual values that have thankfully progressed to where they are today... no longer are females subjugated as they were in the seventeenth century

      to sum it up, maybe, in some cases, what the males are saying is more compelling than what the females are

      maybe

      call me a sexist for saying that, but for an idealist such as yourself, you should know to appreciate other's input

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    3. It seems like you have deliberately misinterpreted everything that Hannah said and the goal that she is trying to achieve with a piece like this.

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    4. Mmm I tend to agree with the latter Anon.
      This isn't a manifesto, or call for a "counter culture" within Sydney Grammar or similar schools, rather a recount of my experiences through a feminist lense. And by feminist lense, I mean critically analysing social circumstances that we otherwise take for granted, and using that information to grow awareness of the pervasiveness of gender roles and gender related assumptions/prejudice. Also literally everything you said about male v female voices is explained here: http://afeministfatale.blogspot.com.au/2015/09/vocal-fry-and-how-not-to-treat.html

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  6. Hey, I'm really sorry but maybe the reason you feel like it's "not your place" to contribute to the banter is because you do not go to the school, and not because of your gender. The banter largely seems to come from people who go to the school, as they are in a familiar environment, are surrounded by friends, and, as they are largely extending the banter present in the schoolyard and are more easily able to judge what is acceptable amongst their peers and what will be seen as funny, feel more comfortable to publically contribute. Surely at a debate between two top girls schools there would be very, very few guys who would shout out or whistle or jeer or anything. That is not because the guys see the debate as less prestigious or anything, but rather because this is not their home, they know less people, and they hence do not have the confidence to call out. In fact you could say it's not their place. That has nothing to do with gender, I would say...

    Thanks :)

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    1. Is there such a debate between two top-tier girls schools that is large enough to have the same forces of exclusion that this top-tier boys' school debate had?

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  7. I feel like most of your points are extremely valid, but my overwhelming feeling was - these things could be changed, but they are entrenched nonetheless.
    I think that it would be very hard, and definitely (maybe incorrectly) unpopular to open up these types of events so as to be more inclusive. In my opinion, surely the better option would be to try and start an equivalent scenario for the girls schools?
    One thing you have partly ignored is the whole "prestige" factor that surrounds the GPS schools, and I do think that that is a contributing factor as to why these type of events are so alienating to "outsiders".
    If you ask the students, they will say that they couldn't care less about said prestige (myself definitely included), yet I do believe that the format and schedule that the competition provides definitely adds to some of the factors you previously identified. If we do the same competition every year, if we compete against every school in said competition, the "banter" is sure to grow as the rivalries flourish (SGS vs SBHS is surely the most fun one).
    Because of how male-dominated old society used to be, there are very few girls competitions similar to the GPS (at least to my knowledge), and so there isn't really an opportunity for similar bant and rivalries.
    Similarly, the type of bant that girls do needn't be the same that the boys' schools do, but there isn't much experimentation (that i've seen) of different type of banter in girls schools.
    That's the type of problem that can only be fixed by different girls experimenting on facebook and such. To my knowledge this type of event and banter has become much more popular recently, and has also become much more open to all guys - not just the traditional jocks.
    Anyway, that's my two cents. I just feel that yes a lot of the problems lie in the way school boys operate, but the solutions lie in how to change the way school girls operate, either through social interactions, or more institutional change. I understand that it is easier to shift blame from my demographic, but I feel like this sort of thing is the easiest (comparatively) and most effective way to bring about change.
    Anyway, really good article.

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    1. Thanks Andy!
      Yeah I wrote this less as a call to arms for people to change the banter/competition culture, and more to bring awareness to how it's so male-dominated, and that this has effects in wider society/later in life

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  8. Just binge read your entire blog! Can't necessarily relate to this one 100%, but your views on oppression and gender roles, and your insightful and thought provoking reflections on social conditioning in media are so brilliantly articulate. I especially love how you frequently support your arguments with well chosen evidence. Will be keeping up with your writing for sure :) xx

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